Food and mood: Interview with JB

By John Berardi, Ph.D.

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A few weeks back, I got a call from my friend Bobby Cappuccio.  Bobby is a well-known speaker and consultant in the fitness industry, and he wanted to interview me for a web site called PT (Personal Training) on the Net. The topic of our conversation – food and mood.

Specifically, he wanted to talk about how food can impact our mood and our behaviors.  More than that, he wanted to talk about what we can do to gain a stronger hold over our eating decisions when we’re feeling out of control.

In the end, the interview turned out great so I posted the transcript below.  I think there are some valuable insights here for everyone interested in health and fitness – from recreational exercisers to personal trainers.  Check it out.

Introduction

Bobby: Today, I’m here with Dr John Berardi, a guy who’s considered one of the top exercise nutrition experts in the world.

Dr Berardi’s work has been published in numerous textbooks, peer-reviewed academic journals, and in countless popular exercise and nutrition books and magazines.

In addition, through his company, Precision Nutrition, Dr. Berardi has worked with over 70,000 clients in over 100 countries.  These clients range from recreational exercisers all the way up to the athletic elite.

Dr. Berardi has also created the highly acclaimed Precision Nutrition Certification program, a sport and exercise nutrition mentorship program designed exclusively for elite fitness professionals.

And today I’m here to talk with him about how food can impact not only our emotional states, but also our behaviors.

Dr Berardi; thanks for joining me.

Dr Berardi: No problem, Bobby.  It’s always a pleasure and I’m excited to share some really interesting information about food and mood.

Food and feelings

Bobby: Ok, we’ll let’s get started with that.  We hear a lot about how food can impact our mood but, really how does what we eat relate to how we feel?

Dr Berardi: You know, Bobby, it was once thought that the only connection between ones emotions and food was the tendency of some people to eat when they were depressed or under stress. But, recent research has been painting an altogether different picture.

We now have the understanding that the foods we eat can actually cause certain mood states.  So, how’s this work?

Well, food can impact our mood in three ways:

1.    Food helps the brain make mood-changing chemicals called neurotransmitters

2.    Food impacts blood sugar levels, which impacts perception of alertness/energy

3.    Food is connected with past feelings/experiences

Now, I don’t want to get real technical here.  So let ‘s go over some examples instead.  Say you’re feeling tired and it’s mid-afternoon.  Well, in that case, a high protein snack is perfect.

Protein contains an amino acid known as tyrosine, and tyrosine stimulates the release of dopamine and epinephrine.  This gives us energy and alertness – with no caffeine required.

But we have to be careful not to eat too many carbohydrates with this protein meal.  You see, complex carbs increase the release of serotonin, another neurotransmitter that puts you to sleep.

Now, I should also note serotonin alleviates depression, calms the nerves, reduces appetite and helps reduce physical pain. So a meal high complex carbs isn’t great when you need to stay awake.  But, when you’re feeling sad or stressed, complex carbs do wonders.

Now let’s talk about sugar.  When you choose a snack high in sugar – initially, you feel an increase of energy as blood sugar levels rise.  Quickly, however, blood sugar drops because insulin has surged and is clearing out the blood glucose.  So you end up feeling as tired, if not more so, than when you started.

That’s another reason protein is a good pick-you-up.  It balances blood sugar levels so you don’t get the fluctuations that can cause you to feel energetic one minute and tired the next.

Now, let’s say you’re just starting a new exercise program and are looking for motivation.  Omega 3 rich fish oils can be a real asset here – as they impact the dopamine and serotonin systems in the brain, leading to a lower incidence of depression as well as increased motivation.

Now I could keep going but let’s wrap up here.  In the end, this area of research is still pretty new.  However, there are still tons of great examples of how food can impact us emotionally.

Food and behavior

Bobby: That’s great info.  And really important, too.  Now, although it’s clear that food can impact our mood, can we go so far as to say that it could even impact our behavior?

Dr Berardi:Well, although food can impact our mood and how we feel, I like to think we’re all in control of our behaviors.

With that said, the presence or absence of certain nutrients can certainly make us more prone to certain actions.

For example, ask a physique competitor whether they’re nicer OR meaner to their friends and family when dieting for a competition.  9 times out of 10 they’re meaner because of the food-related neurotransmitter changes in their brain.

In fact, I remember reading a study that showed that the dopamine system in physique competitors eating a chronic low-carb diet matched that of imprisoned violent offenders.

And since we don’t see lots of physique competitors on death row, this is a good illustration that – while food can impact our mood – it doesn’t have to impact our behavior.

Interestingly, though, there have been a number of studies in the UK, US, and Canada showing that giving one multi-vitamin tablet and one omega 3 rich fish oil tablet per day to prison inmates reduced the incidence of violent behavior by 50%.

But this doesn’t just work in prison inmates.  The same studies were repeated in primary schools and a similar decrease – about 50% – in playground violence was seen with just a multi-vitamin and fish oil tablet each day.

So there’s some good evidence that the presence or absence of certain nutrients can both impact mood and behavior.

Food triggers

Bobby: Ok, let’s talk about a specific behavior – overeating.  A lot of people believe that overeating is a form of self-medicating.  Is that true?

Dr Berardi: I’ve heard this said before and, in some cases, it might be.  However, overeating is such a complicated thing – with all sorts of social, lifestyle, economic, mental, emotional inputs.

And I really do hate when the public tries to oversimplify it with cute little sayings like: “oh, she just overeats because she’s sad.”

Recently there was a study published showing that overeating could be caused by one or two opposite physiological reasons.

The first reason suggests that in some people, food triggers a much bigger pleasure response in overeaters compared to normal eaters.  So overeaters just keep eating more, because it feels good, which eventually causes obesity.

The second reason suggests that in some people, food triggers a much smaller pleasure response in overeaters compared to normal eaters. So overeaters just keep eating more, because they’re trying to feel good, which eventually causes obesity.

The truth is, my team has coached over 6,000 people during the last 3 years and we’ve heard people describe both situations.

In other clients, though, the reason for overeating isn’t nearly as emotional.  It’s that they simply don’t realize that they need to eat less than they are right now.  Really, I’m not kidding.

In our Lean Eating coaching program, we have lessons where our coaching team takes pictures of their daily meals and shares them with their coaching clients.  And, time and time again the clients have these massive ah-ha moments.

They’re like – holy crap – that’s what coach eats?  I’m eating twice as much right now.  I’d better cut back.  So, sometimes the problem is just that when people hear “eat less” they’re not sure what that means.

In the end, overeating happens for hundreds of different reasons – some emotional and some very practical.

When working with a client, the key is – as Chip and Dan Heath talk about in the book Switch – to give them very clear operating instructions, while helping shape the path for them.

Overeating and taste

Bobby: Now, when it comes to overeating, it’s mostly sugary and fatty foods that people over eat.  I mean, I don’t really hear people saying – oh my gosh, I can’t stop eating this raw broccoli.  So why aren’t we overeating on green veggies or even tasty fruits?

Dr Berardi: The simplest reason may be taste.

Sugary foods taste good to some people.  Fatty foods taste good to other people.  And salty foods taste good to other people.  However, as David Kessler talks about in his book The End of Overeating, when we add the right amounts of sweet, salty, creamy, and chunky, we get foods that are damn hard to resist.

They light up our taste buds and our mental pleasure centers in such a way that we – as they say – can’t eat just one.  And, make no mistake, as a former food scientist, Kessler knows what he’s talking about.

Food scientists for the big food manufacturers are hired to create food-like edibles that are delicious and pleasurable in every way – stuff that people can’t resist eating more of.

Unfortunately, veggies and tasty fruits just can’t compare with what food science is bringing to the table.

That’s why I always tell clients to fill up with whole foods first.  Then, if you have a little room, you can add in a taste of one of these crazy pleasure-foods.

This way you’re not displacing the nutrient-rich stuff with fatty, sugary, salty stuff.  And, if you’re already pretty full, are much less likely to overeat.

Foods that balance mood

Bobby: We’ve talked a lot about food and mood, as well as overeating.  At this point I’m just wondering what foods best balance out people’s moods while helping control overeating.

Dr Berardi: Well, it’s not as easy as just saying “eat this food for a good mood.”

Rather, the first step is to make sure we’re not missing anything important.  From our discussion above, I think the best initial nutrition step is to start with omega 3 rich fish oil and a multi-vitamin.

That, at least, kicks us off in the right direction since vitamin and omega 3 deficiencies can negatively impact every aspect of health, including mood.

After that, the next step is to make sure that blood sugar is balanced throughout the day.  This means eating every 2-4 hours, depending on your personal physiology.

But just having a snack isn’t enough.  A high carb snack would cause an initial energy spike with a rebound low blood sugar situation.  So you’d want a more balanced snack with moderate protein, low-moderate complex carbohydrates, and some healthy fats.

Finally, once you’ve corrected your imbalances and managed your blood sugar, you could use specific foods for a boost of energy – when you need that; or a calming-down effect when you need that.

However, most of your energy should be spent on the first two steps – fixing the deficiencies and balancing your blood sugar.

The emotional vs rational brain

Bobby: A lot of people know what they should be eating.  But, often, when it’s time to order their meal, they’re so hungry they order things they know better than ordering.  How do you help them with this?

Dr Berardi: In a word, punishment.  We make sure to physically punish them for not making a good choice.

Ok, I’m kidding.  No, we don’t punish them.  Instead, we set them up for success in the first place.

Why do people make bad choices when they know better?

Well, it’s because their emotional brain is overriding their rational brain.  And when does the emotional brain take over?  When we’re feeling sad, angry, stressed, hungry.  These feelings are the domain of the emotional brain.  And in our coaching program we have a strategy for dealing with the emotional brain called “noticing and naming.”

Here’s an example of how that works.  Let’s say it’s lunch time and you head out to a restaurant.  You haven’t eaten since 7am, so it’s been 5 and ½ hours and you’re starving.

Your rational brain says:  “get the lean chicken and salad.”  Your emotional brain says: “order one of everything – including dessert.”  What do you do?

Well, first, you notice and name.  You say: “ok, I see what’s happening here.  My emotional brain is freaking out.  And that’s because I’ve got low blood sugar and my neurotransmitters are kicking out signals to FEED.”

You just noticed and named.  And, once you do that, you’re more prepared to be rational.

You say: “But, you know what, I’ll be ok.  Even though I’m freaking out a little bit, I’ll survive.  I just need to breathe.  And then make a good food choice.  Regardless of what I chose, the freak out will end when I start eating.  So I might as well choose something that’s good for me.”

Noticing and naming is an awesome strategy for life in general, not just for nutrition.  When we notice and name, we gain control back.  And we prevent bad decisions before they happen [rather than feeling guilty for them after they’ve taken place].

Of course, we’ll want to avoid some of these situations in the first place, if we can.  And, when it comes to food, that means being prepared.

Nutritional control is best preserved – up front – if we’re eating every 2-4 hours, making good selections.  By eating frequently and choosing the right foods, we can keep blood sugar balanced and we can remain satiated.  This means never getting too low in energy or too hungry.

But remember, even those of us who are “perfect” will drop the ball once in a while when it comes to food preparation.  And when we do, it’s time to notice, name, and get in control.

Take-aways

Bobby: Ok, as we wrap this up, what are one or two habits that fitness pros can suggest to clients to help them improve their intake?

Dr Berardi: Well, Bobby, you’re really onto something there – philosophically, I mean.

I’ll actually answer your question and share a few habits in a minute.  But, first, I have to say, this idea of “one” or “two” habits is critical.

You see, people make change hard on themselves by attempting to change too many things at once. They try to overhaul their diet, their exercise habits, their finances, their relationships, etc., all at once — and each of those changes is probably made up of 10-20 smaller behaviors that have to change. That’s a big mistake.

My own experience as a coach (and plenty of emerging research) shows that people can typically change only one behavior at a time.

Human beings are impatient. We want instant gratification. We want everything now — or better yet, yesterday. In fact, one particular client from my Lean Eating coaching program wrote a critique of the plan, essentially saying that he would have preferred had we taught him all the habits and behaviors at once, instead of doling them out over the course of the 6 month program.

That sounds reasonable, doesn’t it? I mean, if there are things he could have done from the very beginning, why did we wait 4 or 5 months to have him do them? Couldn’t he have done more?

NO!!!!!

You see, doing more is the problem! It’s what everyone tries to do. They go in guns blazing, making massive changes across the board, only to collapse in a heap of exhaustion and self-loathing when the first promise to themselves is broken.

Of course, you COULD change more than one thing at once, but not for long, and never for long enough to see lasting, sustainable improvement — which is what you really want, isn’t it?

Oh, and that guy who complained that we should have taught him everything at once? He happened to lose 50 lbs doing it our way — and won the $10,000 prize for the best body transformation!

So the real key here is to accept the fact that you can only change one behavior at a time.   Try to change more than one thing at a time, and you will fail. It’s really that simple.

Now, in terms of habits, we start out pretty simple, with something discussed earlier:  take fish oil and a multi-vitamin every day.  This habit is easy to do and it produces some pretty important physiological changes.

Other habits we include – one at a time – are:

  • Eating lean protein with every meal and snack
  • Saving carb dense meals until after exercise
  • Eating 5-7 servings of fruits and veggies
  • Eating breakfast every day
  • Drinking at least 2L of water per day
  • And more…

You’ll notice none of this is really “fancy.”  But that’s the point.  People don’t need fancy.  They need one honest-to-goodness habit to follow every 2 weeks or so.  And, once they’ve mastered that habit, they need a new one.

These habits will add up until the person has slowly transitioned their eating from where it was before (usually not so good) to a much better place.

Now, there’s one more key to this whole habit thing.  Once you introduce a habit, you have to find out whether your client thinks they can actually do it.  And, how do you find out?  You ask.

You say: “on a scale of 1-10, how confident are you that you can do the habit?”

[Whether it’s fish oil and a multi, fruits and veggies, breakfast, water, whatever.]

If they’re confident and report a 9 or 10 out of 10, then you give them the habit and hold them accountable to doing it for 2 weeks.  However, if they say anything less than 9 out of 10, you DON’T give them the habit.

Instead, you make the habit easier.  Maybe it’s 2 servings of veggies instead of 5.  Maybe it’s breakfast just on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays.  Whatever it is, you keep making the habit easier until they can say: “yep, I’m confident I can do that – 9 out of 10.”

It’s that confidence that builds up motivation and positive momentum.  And no amount of brow beating on your part is going to convince someone who doesn’t think they can do something to do it anyway.

Wrap-up

Bobby: Alright, Dr Berardi – thanks for this awesome information!  Where can people go to learn more about proper nutrition for a good mood and a great body?

Dr Berardi: Well, if people listening in are interested in learning more about nutrition, I highly recommend checking out a free 5-day video course I’ve made available called “The Essentials of Nutrition Coaching.”

Over the course of the 5 days, I teach:

  • How to integrate nutrition coaching in a personal training or strength coaching environment
  • How exactly to assess a new client
  • How to devise a nutrition plan based on that assessment
  • What stats to measure, and how exactly to measure them
  • How to optimize a nutrition plan based on those stats

And I don’t just talk about this stuff — I show fitness pros how to do it. In fact, I even give them all the forms and resources they need to go and do it, right away.

I’ve tried to make this course even better than any nutrition seminar I’ve ever seen, and I think I’ve done that. But that’s for those who see it to decide.

Here’s a link to check it out:  “The Essentials of Nutrition Coaching”

Learn more

To learn more about making important improvements to your nutrition and exercise program, check out the following 5-day video courses.

They’re probably better than 90% of the seminars we’ve ever attended on the subjects of exercise and nutrition (and probably better than a few we’ve given ourselves, too).

The best part? They’re totally free.

To check out the free courses, just click one of the links below.