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Old January 27th, 2008, 02:39 PM
Kyle Sommer Kyle Sommer is offline
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Insulin Sensitivity and How to Repair It

I've been following a high-fat, moderate protein, low carb diet for awhile now. The nutritive breakdown is about 55-60% fat, 35-40% protein, and the rest carbs. My PWO is GROW! and glutamine.

The goal of my current phase is to enhance insulin sensitivity for my next phase, which will be alternating strength/hypertrophy. As such, I'm trying to drop a bit of fat and I'm taking insulin sensitivity supplements such as Poliquin's R-ALA and Fenuplex. I drink Green Tea daily.

Here is my question:

I recently re-read Beradi's old articles, and he states that long-term ketogenic diets can be damaging on insulin sensitivity. I definitely hold the most fat on my love handles, so I know carb tolerance is a problem of mine. Would you say I am doing the correct protocols to fix it, or would adding a small amount of carbs to "re-train" my body to use insulin be more effective?
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Old January 27th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Jason Bonn Jason Bonn is offline
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Hey. Are you taking in any fish oils? I also believe fats such as olive oil, borage oil, avocado and nuts help as well as chromium. I'm on a different computer now, and for some reason I can't post any links, but do a search under "insulin sensitivity" and you'll get some great discussions/thoughts. Also check out the "All About Insulin" article and the extra link to the article "The Anabolic Power of Insulin" from www.johnberardi.com (located toward the bottom under "see also".

Hope that helps.
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Old January 27th, 2008, 03:29 PM
Kyle Sommer Kyle Sommer is offline
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I'm pretty sure I've read every article JB has written, on this site or another. Thank you, though, but I think this requires actual discussion.
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Old January 27th, 2008, 05:39 PM
mc- mc- is offline
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Hi Ksommer,

before getting into this, may i ask, why are your fat ratios so high?

Right now i can't see any PN approach, for instance, that puts fat over 30%. I'm not saying you're wrong; i'm just really curious about the rationale behind this approach, how long you've been on it and why.

Also 35-40% protein is not "moderate" - that's pretty high.

based on your goals, 40,30,30 of Protein Carbs Fats seems more amenable, and that not forever, but that's why i'm asking what set you up for the ratios you are currently using? You probably already know this, but for our radio audience out there, let's be clear that carb intolerance is usually referring to big dollops of starchy carbs in foods like breads, pasta, rice, potatoes, and not in leafy and/or cruciferous veggies.

Your ratios show up to 60 fat and 40 protein. there's no room in there for any of those phyto/nutrients, fiber or anything else. what are you up to?? or what put you up to it? again, not saying it's wrong though i can't see the value in stripping out carbs entirely for any time or reason for a healthy guy; just not clear on the motivation/parameters to have a more informed discussion.

Since insulin sensitivity can be achieved by improving nutrient timing (the PN way with the whole foods/fruits/veggies) and by exercise, again, i'm at a loss for why the uber fat approach.

And sorry, yes, this is another link, but have you looked at Dave Barr's piece on tuning insulin sensitivity (and carb tolerance) it too is mainly carb/nutrient timing and exercise: lots of g-flux style stuff.

good luck with your mission,

mc
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Old January 27th, 2008, 05:48 PM
mc- mc- is offline
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You've likely seen this too, but besides the Atkins diet, and the usual "Weight loss by proxy of dehydration" the approach you espouse is mainly used, when it's used, as a treatment for epilepsy. There have been studies looking at people doing high aerobic work and getting fat/protein, and another group getting fat/protein/carbs. Guess what group totally konked out?

Remember that carbs are important for holding water in the muscle: without adequate hydration the muscle fibers can't contract properly (myosin-actin bridge), so actual muscle growth can be impaired, and it sounds like you want muscle growth. Without sufficient carbs as a source of energy for a heavy workout, you can't do the work you want, either.

This sponging behaviour is in part what Barr's talking about with carbs and insulin tuning.

Anyway, if you don't have epilepsy, again, why anyone does this kind of diet is a mystery to me, as its effects are usually fleeting; it just doesn't seem to be the slow and steady but definately progress inducing PN way, so again, keen to hear your rationale, since if your goals are fat loss and leanness, but insulin sensitivity, there are healthy more balanced ways to achieve your goals.

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Old January 27th, 2008, 11:32 PM
Kyle Sommer Kyle Sommer is offline
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Healthy and balanced mean different things to different people. I find it difficult to operate after eating a meal containing ANY grains, after having been eating a gluten-free, raw diet. I feel incredible eating the way I do, and I've gotten leaner, stronger, and built more muscle. Christian is a fan of ketogenic diets for getting leaner as well. I will eventually utilize PWO whole grains, namely quinoa or rice, and PWO Surge, but I simply do not feel optimal after consuming high carbohydrate foods.

Check out a book called the Metabolic Typing Diet - in it, it states that perhaps "Protein" types, or endomorphs, are fast oxidizers - meaning we must eat the slowest digested nutrients - high fat, high protein, fiberous green veggies. When trying to reduce fat mass, it's important to keep insulin concentrations low as well - so I'm also trying to maximize this potential. My goal is to get very lean and very insulin sensitive, so that when I do try to gain muscle, it will be easier to gain more muscle and less fat. I'm just curious which way is optimal, because I know that fat loss "boot camp" protocols which are really just ketogenic diets DO enhance insulin sensitivity; in fact, it's their main purpose.

Despite what you've heard, it's quite possible to gain muscle while eating no carbs - I've gone from 137 to over 160 lbs with less % bodyfat without routinely eating carbs. And bull you can't do the work you want - in terms of relative strength, I'm quite strong.
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Last edited by Kyle Sommer; January 27th, 2008 at 11:35 PM.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 07:33 AM
mc- mc- is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksommer View Post
Healthy and balanced mean different things to different people. I find it difficult to operate after eating a meal containing ANY grains, after having been eating a gluten-free, raw diet. I feel incredible eating the way I do, and I've gotten leaner, stronger, and built more muscle. Christian is a fan of ketogenic diets for getting leaner as well. I will eventually utilize PWO whole grains, namely quinoa or rice, and PWO Surge, but I simply do not feel optimal after consuming high carbohydrate foods.

Check out a book called the Metabolic Typing Diet - in it, it states that perhaps "Protein" types, or endomorphs, are fast oxidizers - meaning we must eat the slowest digested nutrients - high fat, high protein, fiberous green veggies. When trying to reduce fat mass, it's important to keep insulin concentrations low as well - so I'm also trying to maximize this potential. My goal is to get very lean and very insulin sensitive, so that when I do try to gain muscle, it will be easier to gain more muscle and less fat. I'm just curious which way is optimal, because I know that fat loss "boot camp" protocols which are really just ketogenic diets DO enhance insulin sensitivity; in fact, it's their main purpose.

Despite what you've heard, it's quite possible to gain muscle while eating no carbs - I've gone from 137 to over 160 lbs with less % bodyfat without routinely eating carbs. And bull you can't do the work you want - in terms of relative strength, I'm quite strong.
huh. how bout that.

well i'll look forward to what the PN Team reply.

best
mc
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Old January 28th, 2008, 09:35 AM
John M Berardi John M Berardi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksommer View Post
I've been following a high-fat, moderate protein, low carb diet for awhile now. The nutritive breakdown is about 55-60% fat, 35-40% protein, and the rest carbs. My PWO is GROW! and glutamine.

The goal of my current phase is to enhance insulin sensitivity for my next phase, which will be alternating strength/hypertrophy. As such, I'm trying to drop a bit of fat and I'm taking insulin sensitivity supplements such as Poliquin's R-ALA and Fenuplex. I drink Green Tea daily.

Here is my question:

I recently re-read Beradi's old articles, and he states that long-term ketogenic diets can be damaging on insulin sensitivity. I definitely hold the most fat on my love handles, so I know carb tolerance is a problem of mine. Would you say I am doing the correct protocols to fix it, or would adding a small amount of carbs to "re-train" my body to use insulin be more effective?
Hi There,

With your fairly low carb intake, I'm not sure if I'd be even using R-ALA and Fenuplex. After all, without much in the way of carbs, you don't necessarily need to boost carbohydrate tolerance.

In my opinion, you'd only want to start adding these if you're planning to add carbs into your plan.

And that's where my quote above is relevant - insulin sensitivity declines with ketogenic diets - but you'll only see negative effects when adding carbs back in.

At this point, I'd need to know a bit more about you before deciding which protocol is best. What's your height, weight, body fat, and activity level?
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Old January 28th, 2008, 09:54 AM
Kyle Sommer Kyle Sommer is offline
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I'm honored John;

I'll admit I don't fully understand the mechanisms behind those supplements, Fenuplex especially: I know R-ALA helps dispose glucose into muscle and is sort of an insulin mimicker (thus decreasing the amount of insulin needed to process), but not 100% on Fenuplex. Either way, I know that they improve insulin function, and I do tend to store my fat in the love handles. My logic is improved insulin function -> improved physique. I also know that insulin is released everytime you eat whether or not carbs are included.

I'm about 5'8", 160 lbs when not depleted, I'd guess 11-12% bodyfat. My umbilical and suprailiac hold a great deal of my fat deposits, which I know again is linked to carbohydrate handling. I do intense free-weight training about 4 times per week for about an hour each time. This week I'm going to add in 3 bouts of intervals at 20-30 minutes per session; I also work about 24 hours a week as a server, which is a lot of walking and carrying loads from 5-50 lbs on my shoulder.

When I first got into PN and upped my calories and was using PWO surge with PWO carbs, my bodyfat went up a lot - maybe it was because of my slow metabolism prior. After I did some reading, I switched to the Poliquin-style whey+glutamine PWO shake with Quinoa as my PWO meal carb, and my bodyfat decreased while I was still gaining weight. I really DO want to use Surge, because I want to optimize my muscle growth.. but I know without insulin sensitivity that's just not gonna work. So my goal right now is to get under 10% bodyfat, and I'd like to see both my suprailiac and subscapula go to around 8mm or less, before I start trying to use Surge.

Thanks a lot John!

(P.S. - I sent Carter a couple of PMs with questions about internships at Science Link.. I don't know if any of those ever made it to you?)
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Last edited by Kyle Sommer; January 28th, 2008 at 10:10 AM.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 10:03 AM
Roland Fisher Roland Fisher is offline
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ksommer,

What bf% are you holding right now? Is it that you have leaned up enough that you're thinking of adding a small amount of CHO?

Hey mc-,

When people are compliant, ketogenic diets have almost always worked in my experience. It is hard for many to be compliant though, and I had them supplement a bit more than others. There are many an educated opinion out there that don't turn out to hold when tested, in the end I think it's more about being compliant for life, in a healthy way, than the actual "tricks".
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