[turbo]

According to Charles Poliquin, twice daily training is a good way to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time over a short period. If I am willing to stick to the routine, (e.g. Heavy low reps in AM, Lighter high reps in PM). Whats the best diet for this? Obviously I am going to need a carb/protein drink for each, but Poliquin leaves out whether you eat hypocaloric the rest of the day or just fat/protein etc.

I was thinking my only carbs would come from my peri/post workout shake and then fat/protein the rest of the day? What kind of calories are recommended?

Luke

[Philo84]

Okay...I´m doing nearly the same this time.
Training twice a day means for me, PWO twice a day and also a starchy carb meal twice a day.
My during-/post-workout-shake includes 50g of carbs, and my starchy carb meal includes also 50g of carbs. This twice per day means 200g of carbs + the "alltime"-carbs of fruits and veggies (another 50g of carbs per day). So on trainingdays my carb intake is 250g. The rest of the day protein and fat.
For muscle gaining this approach works great for me. If fat loss is the goal, you maybe can skip the starchy carbs in the PWO-window, but I would not cancel the WO-carbs.

[HolyDiver]

Originally Posted by Philo84

Okay...I´m doing nearly the same this time.
Training twice a day means for me, PWO twice a day and also a starchy carb meal twice a day.
My during-/post-workout-shake includes 50g of carbs, and my starchy carb meal includes also 50g of carbs. This twice per day means 200g of carbs + the "alltime"-carbs of fruits and veggies (another 50g of carbs per day). So on trainingdays my carb intake is 250g. The rest of the day protein and fat.
For muscle gaining this approach works great for me. If fat loss is the goal, you maybe can skip the starchy carbs in the PWO-window, but I would not cancel the WO-carbs.

Interesting approach.

I've been doing two-a-days and, since I'm working on fat loss, leaving the starchy carbs in the post-workout and only BCAAs during workout.

As for calories Luke, how much have you been eating lately? If you're in maintenance, I would think the additional carb/protein combos would kick up the calories plenty to add muscle.

I would try adding the carbs/protein during the two workouts for a couple weeks and see what happens. You may need more food or less depending on what happens.

[jezza001]

When i was aiming for muscle gain and training twice a day I had a shake during/after each session and a PWO meal after each one.

My shakes were 1:1 protein/carbs (30g/30g) and my PWO meal was about 1:2 protein/carbs (50g/100+ g). Had Anytime meals the rest of the day. One important thing is though i have a really good carb tolerance as i didnt gain any fat doing this.

Worked great for me, really added some appreciable and noticeable size in only 3 weeks.

To be honest i really wouldnt try this on restricted calories as i think you would burn out pretty quickly.

[turbo]

Thanks for the tips.

I actually eat around 4500 calories a day when looking for size normally. I tend to do well with just P+F but always have a Peri/post workout shake.

With the twice a day, I have been taking 100 grams carbs and 50 grams protein with both daily workouts and eating P+F the rest of the day for around 3200 calories.. I'd like to lean out. I am slim by nature but dont have that really lean look that I'd like. Obviously, I dont want to burn out, but I dont want to undermine my fat loss goals.

If I was eating for growth, I might eat around 5000 calories/day, but was interested in how Poliquin claimed to have had clients gain fat AND lose muscle through this twice a day approach.

Luke

[Trav876]

I don't know if there's anything special about twice a day lifts that would make one burn more fat AND gain more muscle, but with a body comp goal like that, it would just be great to be moving around constantly and it seems like his philosophy kind of goes along the lines of JB's G-Flux approach (workout more, burn more calories (especially from lifting), eat more to get more nutrients, and probably still be in a slight deficit). So maybe that's where he's coming from. He knows a heck of a lot more than me, so I'm just guessing there.

Anyway, I wouldn't treat the diet any differently than you normally would, except maybe, like Jezza says, make sure you're getting enough. You said you're naturally slim by nature, but you do well on low carb diets? Well, if you're getting two shakes at 100 g carbs per shake, that's quite a bit of peri-workout carbs. With regards to the workout shakes, it might make sense to back it off a little in the pm if you're not going as intensely. Of course, just because it's lighter reps doesn't mean it won't be as intense, so that may be a bad assumption by me. By all means use 2 large shakes if both workouts are tough, but otherwise that might be a place to start.

Once again, I know you said you do best on low-carb (besides the workout shakes), but have you ever tried eating a bit higher carb? I'm not saying it will work, but if you're an ectomorph it might be worth a try. Of course that's whole grains, veggies, fruits, and lower fat meals for most of the day (and maybe a few P+F meals near the end of the day, supplemented with some of the carbs mentioned above).

[turbo]

Trav876

Yeah, I think I will back off the carbs a bit during the workout sessions. I always do well with the higher carb/protein shake, as I feel like I dont burn out as easily with them. You're right, if the higher rep sessions are easier then I should back off, but I pretty much train to failure on those usually. I end up doing supersetting towards the end of the workouts too, so I feel the carbs are warranted.

I will see what happens after two weeks, and if I feel burned out I will up my P+C meals throughout the day, but we'll see until then. It's only been four days i've been doing this. I just want a jumpstart to my system, I don't want to kill myself!

The carbs are tricky in that I handle them ok because of my metabolism, but I can't seem to burn fat without eliminating them for the most part. Of course, peri/post workout JB has proven that any carbs go pretty much to muscle building.

Thanks for the help

Luke